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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.10 06:27:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Akita T
"Al Capone" 
Ha! Ha! Ha!
I wonder how many people even get that ...
Of course ... if I'd wanted to read 8 pages of Sturm Und Drang ... maybe I could have found out ...
I'm glad the little **** is in jail ... I just wish it was for what he'd done ... rather than for some triviality ... but ... what the **** - I'll take it.
One Man's Whistle Blower Is Another Man's Spy ... and I think the ass hole is a spy (not for any nation in particular but for everyone in general) - and I think he should hang - literally hang.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.11 13:28:00 -
[2]
1) Each nation has a right to protect itself and it's secrets. They do that by arresting, imprisoning and sometimes executing those that have violated their laws against espionage. I.E. - Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed for giving our nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union.
2) Stating that a nations laws should be enforced and how they should be enforced - is not hate - it is a demand for justice. If the laws concerning a crime of espionage include execution - then calling for that penalty to be imposed is appropriate. Now - that doesn't mean I think that's going to happen. But - the fact that people think they can just do any damn thing they please and not suffer any consequences - needs to be changed. Making an example of someone - by inflicting upon them the full force of the law and the strongest punishment for breaking that law lets other people know - that they can be punished for breaking that law. Now here, I'm assuming that execution is still a penalty, though it might not be.
People who have the silly idea - that execution is to harsh - are woefully ignorant of the law and it's historical precedents. During WWII Battle of The Bulge - enemy soldiers were caught wearing the uniforms of American soldiers, for the purpose of infiltrating their lines and committing sabotage. These people were given summary trials - and shot.
Anyone making a protest of imposing this penalty on someone found guilty of committing espionage - simply does not understand the seriousness of that crime. Virtually ALL nations throughout history have reserved the right to execute spies.
What is happening right now is being treated as a joke. It is NOT a joke. It is serious. When nations secrets are exposed to their enemies or the public - people can die because of that. People who are trying to defend the freedoms of speech and our legal rights - are having that made more difficult by people exposing our secrets.
It is NOT advocating Lynching to call for someone who has committed Espionage to be hung. Lynching is done without a legal trial. Those accused of espionage - are given a fair trial - and if convicted (as far as I know) can be executed.
Acting appalled at the idea that spies might die for what they have done is - just silly - and a complete lack of understanding of the seriousness of what has been done here.
3) Freedom of Speech - is NO excuse to break the law or commit espionage. You do NOT have a right to say anything you want - and the courts are full of examples of this. You can't cry "Fire!" in a crowded theater and cause a panic which gets hundreds of people trampled. You cannot libel someone. You cannot reveal government secrets with out being guilty of a crime. The person who turned over the secrets - is in jail - and will probably spend the rest of his life there. Yes - I think he should be hung too - but they usually don't do that any more.
4) I am happy this guy is in jail - but I would not want him put there if he was innocent. What he is in jail for now - is something between himself and the Swedish Legal System. One of the levers that law enforcement uses to prosecute people who have committed crimes - is arresting them for crimes they have committed - and then once they have them in custody - working to establish a case against them for a more serious crime. Here - you have at least 2 crimes. A minor infraction that gets them arrested - and a more serious offense they will also be charged with but which may take more time to bring charges for.
5) As to the American Judicial System and fairness ... how many of you know - that Osama Bin Laden - was offered to the United States by the government of Sudan - but we wouldn't take him - because we didn't have our legal work done. We were working on it - but we didn't have a legal right at that time to accept him as a prisoner - so - Sudan let him go to Afghanistan - where he organized 9/11. We are fair to a fault.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.11 17:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Baneken
Got to love the blue eye ignorance of Americans like Toshiro's for still thinking that their government could do no wrong or that the government would care about laws if they can get away with it ... 
Besides you can't blame wikileaks & Assange for espionage when they are only publishing material from their source (the actual spy), if they would had caught Assange red handed stealing information it might be different.
You case would be pretty much on premises of accusing a new paper and it's head editor for publishing news that people should know but (your US) government doesn't like.
Knowledge about german death camps was also highly classified but not released to general public until it was too late to cover it up but hey those guys should hang for telling the public about that.
As for those so called **** are charges they are with labels of "not using condom while having sex" which in hardly call for a case of an international arrest warrant ?
Nordic countries give out those orders extremely rarely we even had serial killer loose for 3 weeks for killing 5 people over a bicycle in Sweden and no public "international warrant" what so ever was given.
My eyes are brown moron - and you obviously don't know ****. You sit back wrapping yourself smuggly in your own prejudices mindlessly casting aspersions on those you don't like. You don't like the US - so anything we do you see as a chance to attack us. Well - if you live in a free country - you owe your freedom to US.
The Law - protects the innocent and punishes the guilty. It is the law that protects freedom of the press - and the law that punishes abuse of it. Of course it isn't perfect - but then neither are you. You are an example of why the law isn't perfect - because as an imperfect human being - you make mistakes - and the people who administer the law - make mistakes too. One of the mistakes that has been made for decades is a liberalization of the court system that has let people come to think that nothing bad will happen to them no matter what they do.
Publishing state secrets - gives them to our enemies - giving secrets to our enemies - is espionage - and should be punished severely.
What I want is for the Law to be enforced - and for this ass hole to go to jail (I'd rather he was hung but jail is all I'm likely to get).
Receipt of stolen property - is a crime.
Receipt of stolen secrets is a crime or should be - and everyone who has published it is guilty of passing it on.
We've got the little **** for the moment - I hope we at least put him in jail for the rest of his life - oh and as for any other people who have published those secrets - they should be prosecuted too.
If you don't like it - you can just go to hell.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 02:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
... Stuff I said ...
So you think governments are above the law. Nice to know you support North Korea
Idiot.
There is nowhere in any of my posts I said the government was above the law - and if you had paid the slightest bit of attention to the news in the US you'd see any number of government officials and military personnel who have been brought up on charges for any number of things.
I am for the Law. This guy has committed a crime by publishing US secrets - he should go to jail (or be hung ...).
Originally by: Tora Nevaal
Edited by: Tora Nevaal on 11/12/2010 21:30:25
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
If you don't like it - you can just go to hell.
Look dude, I know that you're just trolling and that's cool and all, but please stop making all Americans look like raging a-holes. It's already difficult enough to travel abroad, don't make in any worse.
Regardless the US has already stated that Assange and wikileaks have broken no laws.
And I personally am very proud of my blue eyes; they're my most striking feature .
No I'm not trolling though you always have people trolling the US. The fact of the matter is much of the world is jealous of our power and wealth - and bad mouth us every chance they get. They are the raging ass holes - and there's nothing any of us are going to do to shut them up. They hate us - and I am tired of their crap.
And NO the US had NOT said that he has broken no laws - what they ARE doing is trying to figure out how to prosecute him using the laws we have. The problem here - is that this particular type of crime has not been committed that often before - so as with much of Internet Legislation - they don't have specific laws designed to cover exactly this. That does NOT mean that there aren't laws that can be applied or that he has not committed a crime - it just means that they have to use laws that were not drafted with the Internet in mind to prosecute him - until new laws can be written which deal more specifically with such offenses.
And yeah ... blue eyes are fine ... mine are just brown.
It actually is amazing that anyone has any sympathy for this guy. He has clearly committed a crime.
Suppose he got hold of some authors new novel and posted it on the internet. Would that be OK? No. It wouldn't.
Mostly - holders of copy rights are satisfied with suing the person or merely having the material they have illegally posted taken down.
Government Secrets are more important than that. Peoples lives may be lost because of the loss of these secrets. There are any number of historical cases where in Spies have cost people their lives.
Right now - the US is at war. We are killing people who are killing our people. And this little **** - doesn't like us - so he's going to just post our secrets on the internet - where our enemies can read them. That is why I hope he hangs. He won't but I can hope. He has attacked my country by revealing some of it's secrets and I would very much like to see him dead.
The thing here is - here ... on the internet - you have a large community of people who are very much into being anti-authority. The Authorities won't let them hack computer programs and give them all away for free. They won't let them hack other peoples computers and mess with them for the fun of it. They won't let them rob other people through their computers. And these anti-authority people just love it when anyone for any reason tweaks the tail of any authority.
Well - tweaking the tail of a tiger can have serious consequences.
And yes - a lot of this does come down to whose side you are on. If you support terrorists who intentionally target innocent people in order to terrorize them - then of course you're going to support guys like this.
If you're not an idiot - then you support seeing people such as this punished to the full extent of the law.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 04:44:00 -
[5]
Dear Betty,
You've no idea what you are talking about - except your eye color - which is probably Hazel.
1) Being bankrupt is when you have no money and no one will lend you any.
2) Espionage is the crime - what part of did you miss? Publishing secret documents in the US has always been illegal. Look more closely into the cases you've cited and you will see that.
3) Lies are common place in diplomacy and war - you don't tell your enemy what you are going to do.
4) Do you know what a WMD is? There were WMD's in Iraq and the weapons inspectors found them continually. The only question is - did we find them all before we invaded? That however was not the real issue. The real issue was - why did we wait all that time to do what we should have done ten years earlier? We should have invaded Iraq during the first part of the Gulf War - and removed it's leader from power THEN. The thing that was wrong - was that it took 9/11 to give us the impetus to do what we already should have done.
5) The UN does NOT have figures stating that the American's killed 1.5 Million Innocent people. Most of the people the US killed - were terrorists - who job it is to kill innocent people. Terrorists live to kill innocent people. The US has kill innocent people accidentally - but when we do - we feel bad about it and try to do what we can for their families - such as the reparations we paid for shooting down an Iranian Air Liner - because we thought it was an F14 that was attacking us. People make mistakes and when you are at war mistakes can kill people you did not intend to kill - such as our own troops. BUT - when WE do that - is is a mistake. When the terrorist do that - it is a success. If you cannot tell the difference it is because you are so wrapped up in your hatred for people who are better off and more powerful than yours - that you can't see what is right and what is wrong.
Oh ... and as I said - THAT is why people hate the US.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 09:50:00 -
[6]
1) @ ChaeDoc II - just because someone stole our secrets outside the United States doesn't mean they are not subject to our laws - if we can get our hands on them. If they are arrested and extradited to this country - we can convict them.
2) @ Tora Nevaal - This thread was pure politics from the first word - anything to do with this subject is pure politics - the mods just delete what they don't like. Since the mods are European - you will know when the US has won the argument as the thread will be closed.
See #1 above
Saying there is no war on terror is silly.
You are rigtht about why Bush The Elder didn't go into Iraq - but then did he know we would still be fooling with it's leader 10 years later? He has commented on that but I've forgotten what he said.
You have no figures for the number of innocent civilians we have killed. The vast majority of people who have been killed in Iraq - were killed by the Insurgents - OR - other groups that had a grudge with them.
Freedom isn't free. Every nation that has taken it's freedom has had to pay for it in blood. We did. France did. The UK did. Germany did. Each has a different hisotry but the path to the freedom they have today was long and bloody. Iraq - for the moment - is a free nation. We have given them a chance. I hope - for their sake - that they don't screw it up. China and Russia could have won their freedom - but lost the war - and the communists took over - then killed millions of people in their collectivization campaigns.
You obviously know nothing about our tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan.
WMD's is a red herring. It was an excusse to do something for which no excuse was required - but - they did have WMD's in Iraq and we did find them. Whether the leadership of that nation knew where they were or how what percentage of them are still buried in the desert is unknown. There is an Iraqi General who has told us exactly where they went and I've seen it on a map on the internet. We just don't know how much truth there is to that. But again - that was irrelevant. Bush The Elder was mistaken in not taking Iraq's old leadership out when he had the chance.
As to the impact of the specific documents leacked ... I am not an intelligence analyst - and couldn't tell you if I was. No one is going to tell you the truth about that - as THAT - is ANOTHER of our secrets. But - if you look at how intelligence is done - from historical examples - it is pieced together from bits of info gathered here and there. To just be given a massive dump of US secrets - would be bound to help - to some degree - anyone analyzing us.
Of course most governments dealing with us now will continue to do so on the same basis.
3) @ Baneken - So you're saying that you are an immature child?
In any case - the discussion of communism was accurate before they had succeeded in capturing any government and is still accurate to day. Just because something was said in the past does not make it untrue today. The "oh that's so five minutes ago" argument proposed by people like yourself reflects their attention span and demonstrates the lack of value to their opinions.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 10:22:00 -
[7]
4) @ baltec1 - Yes - he HAS committed a crime. He has committed Espionage and any other media that has published these documents has committed a crime too. Look up The Pentagon Papers on Wikipedia for an example of how that can work out. Note that I'm not happy about it but what they got away with back then does not mean they can do it now.
The Pentagon Papers
Quote:
Times v. United States is generally considered a victory for an extensive reading of the First Amendment, but as the Supreme Court ruled on whether the government had made a successful case for prior restraint, its decision did not void the Espionage Act or give the press unlimited freedom to publish classified documents. A majority of the justices ruled that the government could still prosecute the Times and the Post for violating the Espionage Act by publishing the documents. Ellsberg and Russo were not acquitted of violating the Espionage Act; they were freed due to a mistrial from irregularities in the government's case.
Thus, we have a situation like that with O. J. Simpson - where he was guilty as hell - but got away with it because he had good lawyers, the prosecution fumbled the ball and the jury were idiots.
As to our attitude towards someone who had done this to one of our enemies - yes - if he harmed one of our enemies - sure we'd give him a pat on the back and a safe place to live.
But then - WE are the good guys. If you don't know that - you're an idiot.
I've never said my country could do no wrong. We abandoned the people of South East Asia to the communists and millions of them died because of that. We should hang our heads in shame every time the word Vietnam is mentioned. But - no - our secrets should never be published and we should prosecute anyone who does publish them.
If anyone in the US has done something illegal - they have a better chance of being called to account for it than most places in the world. It's hard to do anything in complete secrecy - look at Mylie Cyrus - and there are people all over who for whatever reason are going to tell if they see something they think is wrong or which they can exploit to their own ends. The thing is - there are legal ways of doing this. We are a nation of laws. Criminals are let go all the time because the government wasn't perfect in the way it conducted it's case. Daniel Ellsberg got off because the prosecutors muffed their case - and the courts let him go. Ellsberg and Simpson both should be behind bars to this day - but - because we are so persnickity about our laws - we let them go - as guilty of their crimes as they were.
If anything - the US is law abiding to a fault.
I'll try to covey what this is all about in terms some people on this board may understand.
It's like - the US is the Microsoft of the world. Microsoft gave the world an operating system standard. I am old enough to remember what it was like before there was a dominant O/S. It was chaos. You bought a computer and - by design - you couldn't get very much to run on it that wasn't provided by the vendor that sold it to you. They couldn't even read each others disk formats. Having one Software design that anyone can build hardware for or write software to - is so precious a price can not be put on it. Nothing we have today would be possible in the form it is - without Microsoft. Yet - people hate Microsoft. They hate Microsoft because it is the big company and they are (as we all are) little people without the resources to fight them successfully. People create these little niche technologies like Mac's and Linux, championing them as some kind of "People's" response to the oppression of Microsoft - when nothing could be further from the truth. Mac's and Linux - are just like the bad old days of computers, when everything was proprietary and/or wouldn't work together because the developers wouldn't cooperate.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 10:41:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 12/12/2010 10:47:20
Originally by: Haldane IV
Edited by: Haldane IV on 12/12/2010 10:22:49
...
Stuff I have to delete to make room for a post.
...
*sigh ...
So - because human beings aren't perfect - and thus elect officials which aren't perfect - we should just allow anyone who wants to - to publish our nations deepest secrets?
Is that what your saying?
We are all imperfect. Nothing human beings have ever done is perfect. Most of it is a cluster **** of competing egos, biases and self interest. But ... since human beings are never going to be perfect - things being SNAFU - is just the way it is. That doesn't mean people don't try to fix things - they do. They do try and they do fix them - and then something else breaks or the people who don't like what they did undo it. Rome was that way.
People who lose faith in their governments ... well ... their lack of faith doesn't matter. Everything is going to be all ****ed up all the time no matter what. We just don't have a replacement for human beings - and - if we did - would you want THEM telling us what to do? I think not.
It's like this - we hire people to run the government. They go in there and they do the things they want to do and - if we don't like it - we can always vote them out. Then a new group can go in there and **** up the country THEIR way. But that is how it works.
Now ... as to all these rumors about what is happening with assassins and such ... have you seen Elvis today? How about the UFO's? Or - The Men Who Shot Kennedy?
Mostly ... free countries don't do stuff like what these rumors are saying. Why? Because it doesn't work. See my last post. Someone will rat them out if they do - and they will have proof - not just rumors someone made up on the internet.
BUT - OF COURSE - people will still go around rumor mongering - because they like it! Conspiracy theories and such are fun! Ooooh ... the governments hiding things ... what mysteries lay untold ... aaahhhhh ... Crop Circles, The Bermuda Triangle, Ancient Aliens ... and on and on and on.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:24:00 -
[9]
*shrug*
1) Imperfection categorizes human beings - corruption is one form of imperfection - and is rampant throughout the world - much more so in many less developed nations where it is an intrinsic part of their culture. Most Cultures are either Family Cultures or Rule of Law Cultures. Family Cultures are inherently corrupt as people put their families above the law. Most Western Democracies have Rule of Law cultures - which work better.
2) I haven't posted any statistics - I've just pointed out flaws in some others have cited. As to the deaths in Iraq being caused by the US starting the war - SH - was the leader who started that war by invading Kuwait. For those not paying attention that war didn't end until SH was removed from power. Look at the deaths that AH caused when he and Japan started WWII - were we just supposed to role over then and let them do whatever they wanted because people might die if we resisted? SH started that war, the US went into Saudi Arabia to defend it, ObL attacked the US for putting it's infidel feet on the holy soil of Saudi Arabia and we went into Afghanistan to get at he and the Taliban he was allied with - then we finally went into Iraq to finish what we should have done 10 years before. So - none of the casualties there was caused by the US. The US was responding to actions by others - such as SH. THEN after we had overthrown SH - terrorists swarmed to Iraq to fight us and tensions between ethnic groups there erupted and they began killing each other just as they did in the former states of Yugoslavia. Those tensions were always there. Just as with Tito (though not the same way) SH kept these people under control. Just as Tito couldn't live forever - SH wasn't going to be around forever either and those tensions were going to come out. If SH had not attacked Kuwait - nothing that happened subsequently to that would have happened in his life time. He brought about his own downfall however long it too.
3) To clarify something - Yes - there are a lot of people in jail in the US. They are criminals - thus - the US Governments, Federal, State and Local - are Law Abiding and put those citizens who aren't in jail.
4) US Laws are binding on anyone we can get our hands on who breaks them. Someone being a citizen of another country and committing crimes against us in another country is not immune to prosecution. What is so hard about that concept? It was OUR secrets that were stolen. That is a crime against us. What is so hard about that concept? We have extradition treaties with many nations who will arrest someone who has committed crimes against us - and turn them over to us. That doesn't always happen - but it is not a case of it NEVER happening either.
5) For those not conversant with certain legal concepts - someone who steals something from you - does not get the option to give back part of what they stole and have everything be OK. In fact - cooperation with such people in negotiating what they do with what they stole from you - is to some degree an acceptance of what they have done. Thus - we could not negotiate with some little **** who had a bunch of our secrets as to which he would reveal and which he wouldn't. NONE of them was the only acceptable answer.
6) This is NOT the same thing as airing some politicians personal dirty laundry in public. If the politician has done something illegal or immoral and it is published - that is not the same thing as espionage. Espionage is a deadly serious crime.
7) Relisha - sorry but ... everything you said in reply to me was wrong. Re-read what I said - that is what is right. As to not being able to force freedom on someone - look at Germany and Japan. Of course - the thing here is that - what you do isn't to force freedom on people but to give them the opportunity - at which most people leap - as did the students at Tien An Men who built their own Statue of Liberty - before they were crushed.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:29:00 -
[10]
8) The communists won their revolutions. Then the Soviet Union lost the Cold War. Iran attacked the US because it let the Shah into the US to be treated for cancer. The Shah, whatever his faults, tried to bring his nation out of the middle ages. The Mullahs thought the middle ages were great and turned the peasants against him - and us.
9) Failure to allow the publication of government secrets is not the death of free speech. How stupid can you be?
10) Every form of government is NOT a form of Tyranny. Anarchy is a complete lack of government. Yes - most of the world is corrupt. Globalization is a fact. It's like nuclear science. There is no choice in either happening or being discovered. Democracy is the worst form of government - except for everything else. What counts is the ability to vote the bastards out. All other forms of governments don't have that moderating effect. If they have an enlightened ruler - they aren't that bad - but if they have a bad ruler - you can't get rid of him.
11) Actually as Baneken has noted the world did revolve around the US for a long time - but, for now, it still does today. That's just a statement of fact. We are the dominant military power and the dominant economic power. Everything everyone in the world does - ultimately - is still effected by what the US does. Other nations hate that - but what the hell are we supposed to do about it? Actually ... what we are doing is running our economy on the rocks - so - what are you complaining about? Yes - the world revolves around the United States of America. It does. Our TV programs are everywhere. Our culture dominates the world. If you don't like it - there's nothing I can do about it. It's just a fact.
But - yes - wait 50 years and the Chines will be running things - and the world will revolve around THEM. Then all the little people of the world who hate the fact that the world doesn't revolve around they and their little cultures - can hate China - but for now - they'll just write self absorbed, ignorant posts on the internet and hate us. But they will write all those hate messages in our language - because - at least for now - the world still does revolve around us ... not that I give a damn.
It would be nice though if all those former Imperialists who colonized so much of the world - would once more get off their asses and help out. But that's not likely to happen. So much more fun to sit on the fence and make smart remarks about the people who are out there trying to keep the world from going to hell in a hand bag.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Edited by: Louis deGuerre on 12/12/2010 19:09:34
I'm totally grateful for the US liberating western europe in WOII.
But to be fair, if they had not been attacked by Japan they might not even have gotten involved in the war.
Russia would have crushed the Germans eventually, even without US launching a western front.
So I'm more thankful for Japan for attacking US and forcing them to get involved and preventing me from having to grown up in a Communist state, and with my attitude probably dying in a gulag.
EDIT : Right, can we get back on topic now ? 
We'd have gotten into it with Germany sooner or later Japan or not but the Germans would have won the war without us - not the Russians.
The Russian Army was only able to mount the types of assaults it did on the Germans because of American Trucks. That is what gave them their mobility. The Russians built great tanks but they didn't have enough trucks.
The other thing is - without the US Air Force bombing Germany - all those fighter planes the Germans devoted to intercepting them would have been in Russia - and that would have stopped the Russians too. It was the Germans loss of air superiority that doomed them - and they lost it because of American Bombers. Not to mention what the American Bombers did with all those bombs.
Of course - the person you really need to thank for Germany's defeat - the one person in the world who did more than any other to bring that about - was AH. Of course without him - there wouldn't have been a war - but he is the one who did the most to bring defeat to his nation.
The British Empire and the Soviet Union certainly made major commitments to the war. The British were alone for a year or so before ******, instead of finishing them off - attacked The Soviet Union. And the Soviets absorbed the major part of the German Army but without the US - they would have lost - or - at least not have won.
Had Germany beaten the British Empire and the Soviet Union ... we still would have had the population and industrial capacity to beat them but whether or not we would have had the will is another question.
Japan and Germany were aware of our population and industry but they dismissed us as being weak, counting on the will of their military's to beat us.
In that - they did have a point. The communists in Vietnam counted on the same thing - and against the children of the Depression Generation that won WWII - they succeeded. My cry baby generation of spoiled brats whined and cried until the abysmal leadership of our nation at that time quit.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.14 06:01:00 -
[12]
1) Again - Espionage is a crime. The soldier who stole the secrets committed it - but then so did anyone receiving those secrets. Right now - a lot of media people are banking on the idea that there are to many of them to prosecute - but - oh would I love to see a lot of journalists in jail. But I'll not go into my Journalist Rant here.
2) Threads digress all the time and bringing up examples of things - such as WWII - to make a point about the thread topic - inevitably leads to digressions. And yes - the US largely won the war against Japan by itself. The Chinese contributed a lot of people the Japanese shot - and the British under Slim defended India. The Australians were crucial in New Guinea but after that - went to Indonesia. Now - one reason there was not more participation by the British Empire was because the American's didn't want them. Some of this was ego - but - a lot of it had to do with different operating styles that had led to different equipment designs so that it made it hard for them to work together. A specific instance was the range of British ships.
The one thing I'd like people to think about here is how all this stuff really works - and maybe if they can understand that they can understand why the US has to protect it's right to have secrets.
First off - much of the legal world is governed by precedent. You do something and it sets a precedent. Then - in the future - people can argue - "Well you allowed this to happen - so why can't this other thing happen." Thus - while it can make some difference (as it did in the Pentagon Papers case) whether or not the secrets actually contained secrets - you still want to fight for your rights to have secrets - or you won't be allowed to have them. We have already seen people in this thread arguing that The Pentagon Papers proves that Free Speech trumps State Secrets - when that was not at all the case. So - the US has to prosecute people and defend it's right to have secrets - the same way - Disney or some other company must defend it's Intellectual Property Rights. If you don't defend them - you can lose them. Even though the US lost the Pentagon Papers cases - it did NOT lose it's right to defend itself against Espionage because it stood up for it's rights in court.
Now - next - lets think about how government works. How many of you really want to sit down and read 4,000 pages worth of stuff - not to mention the millions of pages that probably exist that haven't been leaked - just to make sure that the US was or was not doing something wrong? None of you want to do that. So - what we do - is we hire people to do that. These people are hired by the citizens of our country to do that job for us. The people who do the actual hiring - gain their authority to do so - from the electorate - during elections. More so - our nation hires people to create these secret documents - as well as run the military and civilian government apparatus.
All of these people - are working for the voters. We vote, the people we elect run the country - and the people they hire to do the jobs carry them out. All of those people are working for the citizens of this country.
Thus - when someone steals secrets from this country - they are not stealing them from some mysterious entity called "the government" they are stealing them from YOU and I. It is OUR nation. The people we have put in place to run this nation are carrying out jobs that WE put them in place to do.
Now, sure, you don't get everything the way you personally want it but - if you don't like what is being done - you can vote in the next election and try to send people to run the country more to your tastes.
So - YOU and I are the ones being robbed here.
Do any of you think that the US should have NO secrets?
It is the job of the people we hire to decide what is secret and what isn't - not some jerk on the net.
Other democracies work about the same way and have the same concerns.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:39:00 -
[13]
1) It is ludicrous to compare jailing someone for publishing secret documents to jailing someone simply because they disagree with government policy.
2) There are "leaks" of internal government workings - and there are leaks of secret documents. Some have more protection than others - so it is not the same thing. There are ways of bringing government misconduct to the fore - without publishing the documents themselves. There are government oversight organizations that can be told about criminal activity on the part of the government. There are ways of doing things within the law. Just because someone exposes something the government did wrong - is no excuse for them to break the law to do it - and - the 'they were all doing it so there was no one you could tell' defense is horse ****. There is always someone within the government who is against what someone else in the government is doing. There is always someone in a democratically elected government that you can tell. Every government has law enforcement agencies - and you can call them. You don't have to break the law to do it.
3) If there is government wrong doing - it will come out. It always does. It's a question of who is brought in to the know of what is going on. Indiscriminately publishing secret documents is NEVER justified.
4) Who the hell is some jerk with a web site to decide what is going to be published and what isn't? It's not his ****ing job. Between trusting my elected officials and trusting him - I'll take my elected officials. The people elected to do the job work for the citizens - who the hell does some jerk with a web site work for? NO. It isn't his job to make decisions as to what is harmless and what isn't. The United States has a Freedom of Information Act - that allows average citizens to ask questions - then - someone whose job it is to determine what should be made public and what shouldn't decides what to release and what to keep secret. Not some jerk whose sole qualification is the fact that he has a web site.
5) If you leave it up to individuals - there is ALWAYS someone who can justify ANYTHING they want to do.
You just CAN NOT allow anyone who wants to - to decide what secret documents they are going to publish and what they aren't. This has nothing to do with freedom of the press. The press cannot commit crimes. Our law courts have upheld that. Those courts decide what is legal and what isn't. That is their job - not some jerk with a web site.
The idea - that anyone could be so stupid as to defend what this person has done - is really unbelievable ... unless ... you accept that all these silly little people think that their stupid silly little opinions matter. We are all free to sit here and argue over things - and people can be just as stupid and silly as they want. But those that take it into their heads that they are going to publish government secrets - had better be prepared to face the consequences.
Oh ... and these people aren't brave crusaders fighting for the good of the average person - they're idiots - with their own stupid little agenda's.
Comparing a democratic government defending it's secrets to a clerical state or a dictatorship - is stupid. There is no comparison - and anyone making one - is an idiot.
That is the reason there are espionage laws. To keep little idiots from exposing whatever it is in their stupid, silly little minds that they think should be. Those laws may not be able to stop them from doing it in the first place - but they can sure as hell make sure that they don't do it again.
There is NO justification for what these people have done. They have committed espionage - and they belong in jail. Of course - I think they should be hung as an example of how serious their crimes are but then ... we live in such a weak willed, mealy mouthed society that's unlikely to happen.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 14/12/2010 14:39:30
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 14/12/2010 14:34:40
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
The one thing I'd like people to think about here is how all this stuff really works - and maybe if they can understand that they can understand why the US has to protect it's right to have secrets.
If a government is unable to keep their secrets under lock and key then they suffer the consequences when they get out. One does not kill the messenger; I will accept that you can go after the individual that gave up the information and give them their day in court though. Other then that the government should fix their leak and then go on with business and try not to let any get out again.
EDIT: And you trying to say that Assange is guilty of theft against each US citizen, and every citizen from every country that Wikileaks has published secrets from, is laughable because the opposite would also be true. If what you say is an acceptable line to draw, then the line goes in reverse. If we accept what you say, then it is also true that every citizen, of a country that partakes in espionage, is guilt of receiving illegal international information by proxy.
Slade
You really should know better than that Slade - you really should.
Nothing is perfect. People get into trusted positions - and they violate that trust. With millions of people and millions of secrets - it happens. Blaming the victim of theft isn't justified.
If a spy gathers information and passes it on to someone else - that other person is as guilty of espionage as the person who took the information. Why is that such a hard concept?
And ... no ... it doesn't work both ways.
Crimes are committed by individuals. An individual takes it into their head they are going to commit a crime - and then they do. They can commit a crime against one person - or they can commit a crime against many - but it is an individual that commits the crime. Saying that just because a spy committed espionage that everyone in his country is a spy too - is absurd.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.14 16:31:00 -
[15]
I don't care if he gets bail ... apparently he'll be under some kind of house arrest even if he does.
Given the fact that he did turn himself in - he's probably less of a flight risk.
What I care about is that he is eventually ... and the courts never act swiftly so eventually is all I'll ever get - that he is eventually convicted of espionage and put in prison.
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.14 21:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
I don't care if he gets bail ... apparently he'll be under some kind of house arrest even if he does.
Given the fact that he did turn himself in - he's probably less of a flight risk.
What I care about is that he is eventually ... and the courts never act swiftly so eventually is all I'll ever get - that he is eventually convicted of espionage and put in prison.
So you want an innocent man in prison?
1. He is not an american citizen.
2. He never stole anything.
3. He has the right to publish what he wants.
I will be happy once US realize they ****ed up big time, and when the government stop screwing over the people.
No - I want the guilty son of a ***** that he is behind bars for life - if not hung.
1) American laws are NOT subject to the nationality of the people who have committed espionage against us.
2) He is in receipt of stolen secrets - which makes him as guilty as the person who stole them.
3) NO. He does NOT have the right to publish whatever he wants.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Strike 3 - you're out.
(That is an American Base Ball Term indicating - you lose).
In any case - it will not be up to you or me to decide this - it will be decided for better or worse in the courts.
As to all the silly sniping going on right now about the legal process - what? You guys have never heard about lawyers, criminals and courts before?
All you guys are doing is Cheering for your side like it's a Soccer Match or something ... which ... I guess is all in good fun ... but ... what the hell ...
Go Sweden!
Go UK!
Put the bastard in prison!
Yea! Yea! Yea!
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.12.15 00:42:00 -
[17]
Let see what do we have here ...
Originally by: Wendat Huron, Pan Crastus, Headerman, baltec1
More of the same.
Look - as I've said - it doesn't really matter what you say or what I say. What matters is what the courts in our nations say. If I'm right - this guy is going to jail - where he belongs. If you're right - he won't.
If you don't like me? I couldn't care less.
But - for you to take anything I said - and attribute that to all American's - what does that say about you? Look at all the American's here who agree with you. Are you tarring them with the same brush you'd paint me? What kind of people do that? Not people from the nation you are from - they don't all do that. But YOU do. You individually have chosen to generalize your feelings about an entire nation - just because of what I said. How smart is that?
I don't do that ... or ... at least I try not to ... Sometimes dealing with idiots gets the best of my better nature ... and I'll respond in kind - when it isn't really warranted.
There are people in your countries that I care as little for as you care for me (such as you). But they are the minority. Most of the people in your countries - agree with me - because they don't want their secrets given away either.
So - flame on - but we'll see who is right in the end.
If I'm right - it's going to be a win for the Rule of Law.
If you all hate the government - then you'd be surprised how many American's there are who hate their government too ... it's just that ... these people would probably hate you guys more. They hate their government but they love their country. I hope you can at least say that. If not ... I feel sorry for you. I've seen enough self hatred in this nation ... it's just stupid.
But then ... 50% of humanity is below average intelligence so ... what are you gonna do?
*shrug*
You all have a real nice day now ...
Orbiting vs. Kiting
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